開放原子杜玉傑：創業九死一生，做開源也一樣

{"type":"doc","content":[{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"不管是做開源項目，還是成立開源基金會，都跟創業一樣是九死一生。"}]}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"2020年6月，中國首個開源基金會——"},{"type":"link","attrs":{"href":"https:\/\/www.openatom.org\/#\/indexPage","title":"xxx","type":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"開放原子開源基金會"}]},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"（OpenAtom Foundation）官宣成立，這也意味着國內開源進入了一個新的時期。其實從很多年前開始，國內開源社區的早期參與者們就一直非常希望中國能有一個自己的開源基金會，甚至可以說，這是很多人的夙願，也有不少人嘗試過在中國註冊開源基金會，但在"},{"type":"link","attrs":{"href":"https:\/\/www.infoq.cn\/theme\/80","title":"xxx","type":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"開放原子"}]},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"之前，這些嘗試都沒有成功，因此開放原子開源基金會自成立以來就備受關注。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"在開放原子開源基金會成立一年之際，InfoQ有幸採訪了開放原子開源基金會祕書長杜玉傑。我們進行了一場長達2個半小時的訪談。他與我們分享了他參與開源的經歷，以及在華爲做開源的收穫，他認爲自己是開源社區的受益者，所以後來一直致力於幫助更多人和企業參與開源；他也給我們分析了在國內註冊成立開源基金會的困難之處，以及開放原子實際運作過程中遇到的挑戰。在他看來，雖然全球開源基金會有大把，但真正被大家熟知的就那麼幾個，開放原子還有很長的路要走。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"blockquote","content":[{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"size","attrs":{"size":10}}],"text":"【編者按】 "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"size","attrs":{"size":10}}],"text":"由於訪談文章篇幅較長，建議先收藏再慢慢閱讀。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"size","attrs":{"size":10}}],"text":"如果你有開源故事或對開源的深刻觀點想要分享、或開源項目想要尋求報道，歡迎聯繫微信 caifangfang842852（請註明姓名和來由）。"}]}]},{"type":"heading","attrs":{"align":null,"level":2},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"開源的受益者"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"在以容器、Kubernetes等爲代表的雲原生浪潮席捲整個行業之前，"},{"type":"link","attrs":{"href":"https:\/\/www.openstack.org\/","title":"xxx","type":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"OpenStack"}]},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"一度風光無兩。它從OpenNebula、CloudStack、Eucalyptus的纏鬥中脫穎而出，很多雲廠商的IaaS層都是基於OpenStack構建。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"OpenStack在中國起步始於2011年，也是這一年，杜玉傑開始在開源社區嶄露頭角。他在國內參與發起了中國OpenStack社區，並作爲OpenStack基金會獨立董事參與了國際OpenStack基金會的運作。OpenStack的成功極大地推動了開源雲計算產業的發展，尤其是國內相關生態的建設。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"一方面，正因爲有了開源的OpenStack，很多以前沒有接觸過雲計算的公司才能夠快速加入到雲計算的浪潮中，加快了國內雲計算產業的發展進程。另一方面，OpenStack也爲國內培養了很多開源人才，現在很多開源社區的活躍分子，還是從OpenStack那個時候成長起來的，杜玉傑自己就是其中一個例子。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：能否跟我們聊聊您接觸開源的契機？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"我最初也是從小白開始，不斷深入參與開源，這個過程中每一段經歷其實都有不一樣的契機。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"第一個契機是因爲我讀書的時候嘗試使用過一些開源項目如可信計算的開源軟件棧等，後來基於這些項目做了一些研究，研究生畢業的時候，正好趕上08年經濟危機，這段經歷幫我找到了第一份工作，參與組建一家Linux發行版廠商的創新中心，後來纔有了更多的機會和資源去深入參與開源。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"第二個契機是我工作一段時間以後，有一天領導找我說，公司要組建一個開源社區，問我願不願意去負責這塊業務。到現在我都非常感激老領導給我這樣一個機會，但說實話我那時候一點經驗都沒有，沒有做過社區，只是使用過開源項目，二者完全不同。所以我當時就跟領導說，我考慮一下。然後我就去向我身邊那些做過開源社區的朋友請教，該怎麼去做。還好大家都比較open，給了我不少幫助和建議，最終使我下定決心接受這個挑戰，嘗試去做開源社區這件事情。這是第二個契機。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"第三個契機是我在推廣開源的過程中，大家經常會問我一個問題，就是做開源怎麼賺錢。包括很多朋友，甚至身邊的同學，知道你在做開源，第一句都會問你怎麼賺錢。你讓大家做開源，大家得知道怎麼賺錢。我覺得也只有自己親身嘗試了，把這個問題真正弄明白，才能去告訴別人怎麼做，所以我就參與發起了一個OpenStack的創業團隊，我很感謝那時候跟我一起創業的小夥伴，創業經歷也給了我很多收穫。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"第四個契機，2012年我去美國參加OSCon，是"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#333333","name":"user"}}],"text":"O'Reilly"},{"type":"text","text":"出版社組織的一個開源全球大會。OSCon之前有一個Community Leadership Summit，翻譯過來就是社區領導力峯會，這個峯會的主辦人就是《社區運營的藝術》那本書的作者，他當時也是Canonical社區的負責人。因爲是全球性的峯會，會場上當時人很多，但裏面只有兩個華人面孔，我是一個，另外一個是來自當時華爲美研所的朋友（視頻的前三秒鐘有當時的照片，感興趣的話可以找一下，"},{"type":"link","attrs":{"href":"https:\/\/www.communityleadershipsummit.com\/about\/","title":null,"type":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"https:\/\/www.communityleadershipsummit.com\/about\/"}]},{"type":"text","text":"）。我當時就很好奇，爲什麼華爲會派人來參加這個大會，因爲那個時候華爲其實在開源領域還沒什麼太大聲音。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"後來我慢慢開始瞭解華爲，逐漸接觸和認識了華爲做開源的朋友，還有他們所做的一些工作。然後我就更加好奇華爲這樣的公司怎麼去做開源，這也給我後來加入華爲埋下一個伏筆。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"差不過就是這樣一些因緣巧合，讓我從剛開始的誤打誤撞懵懵懂懂，到親身體會怎麼構建一個開源社區、一個開源創業團隊，學習了很多，也收穫了很多。這些經歷也讓我堅定了開源的道路，希望能夠幫助更多人加入開源。相信很多人還沒有參與到開源裏來，不是沒有能力，而是可能沒有路徑或者沒有這樣一些機遇。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"我是一個開源的受益者，從工作以來我一直都在做開源相關工作。在遇到問題時，去向開源社區求助或請教，也都能得到很多幫助，有了幫助才能快速成長。“人人爲我，我爲人人”，所以我覺得開源是值得讓更多人去參與並獲益的事情。"}]},{"type":"heading","attrs":{"align":null,"level":2},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"在華爲做開源"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"2015年左右，華爲在開源方面的投入不斷加強，現在爲人所熟知的華爲開源能力中心也是在2014-2015年左右開始組建的。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"2015年6月，Docker 聯合 Linux 基金會成立 "},{"type":"link","attrs":{"href":"https:\/\/opencontainers.org\/","title":"xxx","type":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"OCI"}]},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"（Open Container Initiative）組織，旨在圍繞容器格式和運行時制定一個開放的工業化標準；2015年7月，Google 聯合 Linux 基金會成立了 "},{"type":"link","attrs":{"href":"https:\/\/www.cncf.io\/","title":"xxx","type":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"CNCF"}]},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" 雲原生計算基金會，並將 Kubernetes 作爲首個編入 CNCF 管理體系的開源項目。在開源能力中心的推動下，OCI和CNCF等開源組織，華爲都是早期的發起者之一。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"在杜玉傑看來，在華爲工作那幾年，最大的收穫就是深入瞭解了開源的不同玩法，“開放包容、和而不同”的認知對於後來發起成立開放原子開源基金會起到了很大的推動作用。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：您在2014年加入了華爲，後來是因爲什麼原因離開？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑：我去華爲時的動機和訴求可能就決定了最終的離開。"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"2014年隨着雲計算的興起，開源在中國興起了一波新的浪潮，中國很多企業開始擁抱開源，我當時就覺得，未來會有更多企業，尤其是中國企業加入開源。但由於國內開源的文化和土壤還不成熟，很多企業其實不知道該怎麼去做。尤其是在推廣OpenStack社區的時候，越來越多的中大型企業想要加入進來，但他們自身的規模也決定了，企業要做一個決策需要大量的鋪墊和支撐，尤其是在早期，很難爲開源打開一個綠色通道，這樣的話就要求你更深入地去了解這些企業自身的訴求和問題，找到跟開源結合的路徑。因此，能夠加入一個世界五百強企業，學習它是如何擁抱開源的，在這個過程中又有哪些值得借鑑的地方是一個不錯的選擇。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"我們常說你要自己踩過很多坑，才能幫助其他人去繞過這些坑。當時華爲就是一個很好的例子，2012年OpenStack基金會要成立的時候，我就跟華爲聯繫溝通過，希望他們在基金會發起成立的時候就加入進來，因爲當時華爲已經有團隊在做OpenStack的事情，但後來因爲各種原因他們還是沒有參與進來，其中一個問題就是不知道該去哪裏決策，一直到14年左右才正式加入OpenStack基金會，錯過了幾年時間。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"另外，當時華爲也正處在轉型期，2014年以前，雖然華爲已經在Linux開源社區有一些貢獻，但並不是那麼突出，那時候公司內自上而下發出一個信號要轉型、擁抱開源。我對此也特別感興趣，這樣的一個傳統企業該怎麼去轉型、會怎樣擁抱開源。它經歷的這個轉變，甚至踩過的一些坑，我相信未來對中國很多企業是很有借鑑意義的。我們畢竟和國外企業不太一樣，很多國外的東西照搬過來，可能會水土不服，因爲大家的文化和很多思考方式有所不同。只有中國的企業自己經歷和解決的一些問題才更有借鑑性，所以這是我去華爲的主要原因。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"去的時候就是想通過做幾個項目，幫助公司摸索怎麼更好地擁抱開源，後來做過的項目，包括容器項目推動成立了OCI、CNCF，還有物聯網項目也就是現在鴻蒙開源的前身，這些項目經驗有的優化進了華爲的IPD研發流程，有的結合流程變革項目形成了企業開源人才培養體系。華爲的這次開源轉型相當深入，包括對開源組織架構和決策機制的調整優化、開源戰略規劃和執行流程、開源項目的評審及考評機制等，我都經歷了。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"雲計算之後，又湧現了人工智能、區塊鏈等新興技術，越來越多項目紛紛採用開源的運作方式，社區的價值也得到越來越多的體現和重視，而要發展國內的開源生態僅靠一家企業是不夠的，但國內的企業還比較缺乏相關經驗，他們需要更多的幫助與支持，我覺得這會是更有價值的事情，這是我當時離開華爲的一個基本的背景。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：所以是希望出來能把之前攢下來的這些經驗傳遞給更多企業？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"開源是一個實踐性很強的事情，只有做了才知道，關鍵是要保持你的好奇心。我覺得我更像是不斷在學習，因爲知識總會過時的，只有藉助新的項目、新的環境不斷去學習、去實踐，才更有價值。如果一直待在大公司裏，就像之前你們採訪徐亮的那篇"},{"type":"link","attrs":{"href":"https:\/\/www.infoq.cn\/article\/4KpNE719QXdxtgd7bFJA","title":null,"type":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"文章"}],"marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}]},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"提到的，開源也不都是好的，可能你想接觸很多新的東西，但是在大公司裏面或許你就沒有那麼大的自主權，公司可能安排你做這個事情、做那個事情，你感興趣的事情反倒沒辦法做。所以想要把興趣和工作完美地結合起來，還是比較難的，你只能儘量做一些平衡和取捨。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：華爲在開源的投入上，應該是國內公司最大的，從您的視角看，這裏面的邏輯是什麼？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"第一個邏輯是華爲更注重國際規則，相比國內其他企業，華爲在國際化上做的比較早，我進公司的時候，有個說法是公司70%的業務都來自海外市場。而開源是無國界的，甚至可以說優秀的開源項目一定都是國際化的。從這點來說，華爲的國際化視野跟國際化定位，相比國內的一些其他廠商更有優勢。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"第二個邏輯是華爲本身的業務模式使得它不需要直接靠開源掙錢，傳統來說它其實是一個設備製造商，所以跟互聯網廠商、跟軟件公司都不一樣，它不靠賣軟件賺錢，反倒是藉助開源可以幫助它解決設備的軟件供應鏈安全問題。比如設備賣到國外，人家可能會擔心裏面的代碼安不安全，這個時候用開源其實就很有說服力，可以把代碼開放給你去看，所以你看審查之後並沒有發現什麼問題。包括開源還可以解決廠商綁定的問題，這都是從業務視角的邏輯。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"第三個邏輯是從技術趨勢的角度來看，開源是大勢所趨。吳軍寫過《浪潮之巔》，裏面提到技術其實都是一波一波的浪潮，一直在不斷推陳出新。從10年前的雲計算開始，到現在新興的人工智能、區塊鏈技術，都會越來越多地擁抱開源技術，這是一個趨勢。我相信華爲也是認可這種趨勢的，包括它後來的雲計算轉型，自己做雲不僅用了OpenStack，也大量用到了容器技術等，人工智能這塊也開源了自己的框架。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"這些是一種綜合的邏輯判斷，不是一個單一的邏輯。"}]},{"type":"heading","attrs":{"align":null,"level":2},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"中國首個開源基金會"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"早在雲計算剛剛興起、中國的OpenStack運動勢頭正盛那段時間，“國內做開源最缺開源基金會”這個問題就被反覆提過很多次，而“中國什麼時候纔能有一個自己的開源基金會”幾乎成了國內開源圈的集體夙願。但直到2020年，開放原子開源基金會才正式成立，這也是國內第一個經過民政部審批成立的合法合規的開源基金會。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：在國內做開源基金會這事兒到底有多難？難在哪些方面？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"2012年我們就嘗試過，相信也有其他人嘗試過，之前都沒有成功。"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"但我們始終相信一定會有那麼一天，我們終將成立自己的開源基金會。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"2012年左右做OpenStack社區的時候，我們跟章文嵩（那時他還在阿里），還有其他一些開源的夥伴，我們就在討論，中國爲什麼不能有一個開源的基金會？我們當時發起成立了一個開源社區，目的很簡單，就是想成立一箇中國的開源基金會，幫助本土的一些開源項目更好地做知識產權託管。甚至我們因此還跟一批國內開發者發起的開源項目談過，包括現在很多人知道的RT-Thread、禪道這些知名項目，說如果基金會成立了，他們就把他們的項目捐贈給基金會。但問題是，要註冊成立這樣一個公益慈善組織需要經過審批，我們當時沒有找到什麼比較草根的辦法來解決審批問題。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"從行政審批流程上，在歐美和在中國成立基金會要走的審批是不一樣的。在美國要註冊成立一個基金會，其實是類似註冊成立一個公司，只要滿足公司法中對於公益慈善組織的免稅條款標準，就可以申請成爲一個公益慈善組織，如果是開源方向的就是開源的公益慈善組織，甚至註冊的公司名稱叫XX基金會都是沒有問題的。但在中國不一樣，註冊公司和註冊基金會是兩條線，公司是在工商管理局登記註冊，基金會、法人社團、民非企業都是在民政部登記註冊，兩邊審批的要求就不一樣。而且我們對於公益慈善組織的要求比較高，比如要在國內註冊成立公益慈善組織，必須成立黨支部，這是法律條文規定的。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"其次基金會需要一個專業團隊來運作，這也是國內成立基金會的另一個門檻，因爲沒有相關經驗。雖然近年來國內有一些朋友在國外基金會擔任相關工作職務，比如OpenStack、CNCF、ASF等等，但這些基本上都還是別人已經建立好規則之後你加入進去參與，跟從零到一地組建一個基金會還是有很大差別的。就好比自己創業和加入別人的公司，這兩者是不一樣的，國內一直沒有成立基金會一方面也是因爲缺少這樣的專業人才，並且創業需要有個團隊班底。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"成立一個基金會的難度不亞於成立一個公司，但運作一個基金會又跟運作公司不一樣。"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"很多人可能不太理解公益慈善組織跟公司的區別。一個公益慈善組織首先需要保證它的社會公共屬性，只能做面向社會公衆、公衆受益的事情。其次，它不是不能賺錢，可以依據章程合法取得收入，但是不能把收入所得拿去分配，這裏面有很多限制。所以我剛纔說專業團隊，一方面是運作開源項目方面的專業性，另一方面是運作公益組織的專業性。運作公司的很多經驗，可能不見得適合運作一個基金會。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"還有一個難點在於開源項目，"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"任何一個基金會的成功都離不開一個成功的開源項目"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"。基金會是一個平臺，國際上很多開源基金會託管了大量的開源項目，比如Apache軟件基金會，現在裏面有100多個開源項目。所以第三個難點就難在要能孵化出成功的開源項目，基金會註冊只是第一步，有專業團隊是第二步，第三步是需要能孵化出有影響力的開源項目，開源項目成功了基金會纔有機會成功。把開源項目孵化成功，這是我覺得更有挑戰的一個事情。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"這就又回到創業了，"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"創業九死一生，不見得最後能夠成功，基金會也是，國際上開源基金會其實有大把，但我們熟知的可能就那麼幾個。"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"有一些可能做着做着就不太有聲音了，有的可能出了什麼問題，比如OpenSSL出現漏洞了，大家纔會關注這個基金會捐點錢給它，平時似乎是沒聲音的。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"所以，國內是缺開源基金會，但基金會並不能解決所有問題，基金會註冊的問題解決了，對開源是有幫助的，是這樣一個關係。很多人覺得我們好多問題沒解決，是因爲沒有基金會，我想說基金會成立了能夠解決一部分問題，但肯定也解決不了所有問題。因爲基金會要成功就有很多的依賴，行政審批要能通過、要有專業團隊、要有好的項目，這些本身對國內的開源發展是有幫助的。甚至我認爲，基金會是起了一個頭，如果能做好的話，能鼓勵更多的組織、基金會更好地發展，這是一個好事情，但需要一些摸索。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"開放原子現在相當於前兩步已經走通了，註冊通過了，團隊也有了，最大的挑戰就是能孵化至少一個或幾個成功的開源項目。"}]},{"type":"heading","attrs":{"align":null,"level":2},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"開放原子這一年"}]},{"typ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,"name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：這一年開放原子從各方得到的反饋是怎樣的？（比如理事單位、開發者、國內其他開源組織、開源社區參與者等等）"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"我覺得大多數人對基金會還都是一個比較積極的態度，因爲畢竟我們是國內唯一的開源基金會，大家認爲成立之後還是能夠給國內的開源生態帶來很多幫助，並且很多人也覺得開源不可能說短期內就怎麼樣，還是看好長期的發展。我看到的反饋還算比較積極正向，其中也會有一些好的建議，比如說希望我們更開放一些，或者是多做一些活動，去年由於疫情原因，所以各種活動交流少了很多，很多人感覺好像沒聽到什麼聲音，這個可能是我們做得不太夠的地方。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：其實我們前面也有聊到這個話題，就是怎麼定義一個開源基金會是成功的？比如是不是應該孵化出至少一個殺手級的項目？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"我覺得"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"這是一個必要條件，但不充分。開源基金會成功一定要有成功的開源項目，但是還不充分。"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"基金會真的要成功，它還需要做好開放治理，通過開放治理真正地解決一些社會問題，否則的話就沒必要捐給基金會了，企業自己運營就好了。比如安卓，谷歌自己開源也可以做得很好，比如TensorFlow，谷歌也一直做得很好。我相信還有很多類似的項目，企業自己就可以做得很好，爲什麼捐給基金會？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"基金會是一個公益慈善組織，怎麼建立和維護基金會的公信力，其實最關鍵的還是能否真正解決一些社會問題。"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"通過一個開放治理的架構，才能保證滿足大家共同的利益訴求，保證大家是在一個公平透明的機制下有效達成共識。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"我覺得這是一個基金會能否成功很重要的一個標準，至少反過來看，成功的開源基金會，它一定是通過開放治理的形式解決了某些社會問題。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：目前基金會官網上一共有8個項目在孵化中，在您看來，這幾個項目的健康狀態如何？感覺除了OpenHarmony，其他項目我們好像沒有聽到什麼進展。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"不同項目的狀態不大一樣，因爲有的項目捐過來的時候本身已經開源了，有的項目捐過來的時候其實還沒有開源。對於這些項目，我們圍繞生態構建，做了一些開放治理的工作，包括怎麼讓它由一個單一廠商變成多個廠商共同參與貢獻等等，我們也花了很長的時間去制定"},{"type":"link","attrs":{"href":"https:\/\/www.infoq.cn\/article\/Gy1E0x9KL0FdWtQziyd8","title":null,"type":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"項目孵化畢業的流程"}],"marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}]},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"。目前這些項目都還在孵化中，並且還沒有畢業，所以暫時都還沒有大規模去推廣。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：我們之前有聽說基金會要去“化緣”，國內公司，除了華爲，其他公司參與基金會的主要目的是什麼？情懷？還是其他？畢竟開放原子還在早期，目前市場沒看到大動靜。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"這裏我覺得有幾個問題，第一個要想明白的就是企業開源跟基金會開源的有什麼不一樣的地方。就像剛纔講的，安卓也是開源的，TensorFlow也是開源的，他們跟基金會治理下的開源有什麼不同？谷歌爲什麼要把K8s捐給Linux基金會、成立CNCF？OpenStack基金會早期幾家發起公司爲什麼要捐贈出來？是有什麼樣的訴求？要想明白這個事情，才能明白企業開源和基金會開源的區別。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"在我看來，基金會跟企業做開源，最大的不同就是它的中立性。因爲企業自己做開源，比如國內很多大廠自己都在做開源，總會讓別人有種給你打工的感覺。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"其次，開源有很多種方式，基金會也是其中一種。還有一點就是全球有上百家基金會，知名的也就那麼幾個，基金會也各有各的不同。例如說OpenStack基金會就把開源提高到4個維度，一開始我們講開源就是源代碼開源，但是現在很多項目源代碼是開源的，卻未必開放。比如剛纔說的安卓開源了，但安卓下個版本要做什麼特性你沒法參與，他是做好了才告訴你我是這麼幹的。很多國內手機廠商在這方面就遇到很大的問題，比如說安卓新版本發佈了，我們要做很多工作，但是你又不知道他下個版本做什麼，你控制不了。有可能你做的功能他下一版本給改了，你就要跟着他不斷地改。甚至也有可能用你競爭對手的東西來替換你做的這部分功能，都是有可能的。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"所以說開放源代碼只是開源的第一步，OpenStack Way第二個維度叫"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"Open Design開放設計"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"，就是版本設計也是開放的，以前有專門的Design Summit，讓大家一起來討論這個版本發佈什麼特性、做什麼功能。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"第三個維度是"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"Open Development，就是把開發的過程也開源"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"，包括代碼Review、評審等等這一套東西。同時，因爲雲計算的複雜性，很多編譯調試需要構建平臺，OpenStack在基金會里面算是最早提供一整套CI\/CD構建流程工具的。否則你會發現你寫的代碼，不知道跑在雲上或者跑在服務器上能不能work，因爲可能你沒有那個設備和環境。當時OpenStack基金會就專門有個Infrastructure團隊去解決這個問題。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"第四個維度是"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"Open Community，它的社區生態也是開放的。"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"比如我就是個例子，我當時加入OpenStack基金會是以個人身份，因爲當時公司沒有成爲會員，但是個人身份通過投票選舉等等，你也可以成爲獨立董事。你能看到社區是開放的，它不看你的學歷，不看你的背景，哪怕你沒有大公司背景，因爲你做了一些貢獻，比如幫助它在中國做推廣，也可以加入他們。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"所以它叫OpenStack，“開放堆棧”，就跟這個OpenStack Way是一脈相承的。這就是我剛纔講的開放治理，也是越來越多人認可的一個原因。我感受最深的就是說，OpenStack剛開始開源的時候，還有OpenNebula、CloudStack、Eucalyptus也是開源的。那個時候OpenStack並不是最成熟或者最完善的，後來大家都意識到是因爲它更加開放，幫助它快速超越了其他的一些競爭對手，並且現在幾乎成爲了雲計算的一個事實標準。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：正好對應了我的下一個問題，國內基於開源項目的基礎軟件公司，有的公司選擇把項目捐贈給基金會（比如APISIX），有的公司選擇不捐贈、自己運營（比如TiDB），這裏面的差異點是什麼？怎麼選擇？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"開源不是目的，企業不能爲了開源而開源。基金會也是，你選擇一個基金會，你不能說我爲了加入一個基金會而加入基金會。你的目的是什麼，你想得到什麼，或者是你需要基金會做什麼，或者你的開源項目遇到的問題是什麼。如果你發現一個需求、一個問題，我們就可以去解決它，或者創建一個社區去解決它，但是你要先找到你的問題是什麼。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"像TiDB想構建一個全球社區，他可以自己去構建沒問題。但比如說他在開放治理上有一些訴求的話，我覺得選擇基金會可能也是一種方式，他如果想要捐給基金會，他就要考慮希望基金會能夠解決什麼問題、能達成什麼效果。當然也有很多項目自己會成立基金會。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：所以您的建議是先找到自己的訴求和想要解決的問題。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"因爲不同的領域、不同的項目，比如數據庫類的、操作系統類的，還有云計算類的，領域的訴求不一樣，它解決的問題不一樣。比如OpenStack最開始就是需要把大家聯合到一起，否則很難做，因爲雲的環境很複雜，服務器、存儲、交換機很多都是異構的，如果大家不一起合作去做的話，怎麼可能寫一個軟件在哪裏都能跑得很好，沒有一家公司能獨立去解決好這個問題，所以就需要協作，因此它也意識到開放性的重要性，所以就把開源提高了4個維度，這些都是跟它要解決的問題相匹配的。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"這裏引申一個話題就是說"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"我們不能只照搬國外的東西，因爲你要看你的問題對不對。"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"比如大家覺得Apache的方式很好，但我覺得直接把Apache照搬過來，可能在中國很多條件是不具備的。Apache是一種精英治理模式，所以他對人的要求會很高。Apache制定的標準，我們看很簡單，但其實要求非常高，比如懶人共識，說起來很簡單，但我覺得很難照抄，跟文化有關，在國內可能不好直接用。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"當你加入別人的基金會，他們已經有了這種制度化的設計，你只需要去遵循，很簡單。因爲他已經把這個模式固化了，很多人有這個sense，你照着做就行。但現在如果你自己去構建這套規範，就會遇到很大的挑戰和困難，這個我覺得差別很大。所以對我們來說，我們要去結合實際情況和具體問題展開，可能更實用一些，否則只是照搬會很難。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：再追問一點，如果"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#171a1d","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"不捐給基金會，是不是可以更“獨裁”？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"肯定是可以的，但要不要“獨裁”還是要看你的目的和訴求是什麼。開源有很多種模式，成功也有不同的定義。例如前面提到谷歌的“獨裁”對於安卓和TensorFlow的成功起到了很大的幫助，但Docker早期的“獨裁”對於容器技術的發展就有諸多限制。獨行快，衆行遠，你是想基業長青還是快速變現？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：對於開放原子和其他開源組織之間的關係，現在依然有很多人抱有疑問，比如國外的Apache基金會、Linux基金會，國內的開源社、木蘭開源社區，您怎麼看你們之後的關係？是競爭對手還是合作伙伴？ "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"對於開源組織之間，我們從開放治理的角度來講，它"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"其實不是簡單的競爭或合作，很多時候是一種競合關係。"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"什麼叫競合，就是說大家有競爭，然後也有協作，因爲開源本身就是一個開放協作的模式。首先我們都是開放的，肯定是歡迎合作的，但是你說有沒有競爭，也許在有些領域有，但也不一定就會發生。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"但我想這種競合關係反倒是說能夠激勵不同組織形成更好的合作方式，這個過程會不斷迭代。如果沒記錯，其實最早OpenStack基金會成立的時候，在Linux基金會里面也曾經討論過，因爲當時Linux基金會比較成熟，它下面已經有一些這種類似於託管協作組織，那時候還沒有CNCF，那就想有沒有可能把OpenStack也託管給它。當時Linux基金會好像是投票了，然後沒有通過。後來OpenStack真的起來了，它意識到決策可能是有問題的，所以他們就做了一些調整，後來成立CNCF的時候他們就非常果斷。如果OpenStack沒有起來，Linux基金會也不一定會做這種改變。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"你會發現在這個過程會有這樣一個互相促進的過程，因爲OpenStack代表雲計算新的方向，而Linux基金會以前沒有云計算項目，那可能會對它形成壓力，甚至剛纔說的競爭，反過來它也會去考慮改變。所以它現在有CNCF了，其實也是個好事。就像Apache，最開始其實Apache做的是服務器，Web Server這種，但現在有很多大數據的項目。所以我說這裏面有競爭合作，其實我覺得也是個好事兒，包括CloudStack後來也捐給Apache了。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：目前來看，國外比較成熟的開源基金會都會有自己特定擅長的領域，比如Apache是大數據，Linux是運維方向，那開放原子會有這塊的策略選擇嗎？還是海納百川？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"其實我們可以先回顧一下，Apache是一開始就選擇了大數據嗎？也不是。Linux基金會是一開始就選擇了運維嗎？也沒有。他們是先把項目做好，但是最後吸引了大數據的很多項目。對我們來說，一開始我們有一些戰略規劃，比如項目的領域原則上看未來哪些領域成長性更高，因爲重複造輪子的成功率可能沒那麼高。但很難說一開始規劃的時候就定好方向，就像Apache的大數據項目，我相信不是它規劃出來的，一定是慢慢做出來的，先有一個Hadoop，然後有Storm、Spark等等這些，它的生態就搭起來了。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"我們現在有幾個賽道，有些賽道上可能生態會長得快一些，它需要有這樣一個野蠻生長的過程，這個過程不是一開始就制定好的。我相信Apache大數據不是它規劃出來的，只是現在回過頭來看，它大數據可能做得很好。可能放在以後我們才能看出來，開放原子開源基金會什麼做得更好。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：目前開放原子孵化的開源項目幾乎都是不同賽道的，但後面進來的開源項目可能會有所顧慮，比如自己捐過來的項目和現有的有些是同一賽道，開放原子後續會怎麼處理競爭與資源分配的問題？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"這個是我們現在還在摸索中的一個問題，我們也在探索這些項目怎樣去處理，所以這個也只能基於不同的領域去考慮。比如我們也有考慮過，我們現在有一些物聯網的項目，是不是把它們組織到一起，形成一個類似工作組的模式。這個也是出於歐美法律跟中國法律體系不一樣的考慮。比如CNCF其實是Linux的子基金會，從性質上看，相當於CNCF是Linux基金會的一個獨立的子公司，需要向Linux基金會交相應的會費，然後Linux基金會給它提供基金會的託管服務。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"按照國內法律，我們沒辦法成立子基金會，但是它這種模式我們覺得值得借鑑。所以我們只能成立工作委員會，比如成立一個物聯網工作委員會，可以把一些物聯網項目集中到一起，大家一起來治理，但我們還在嘗試中。我們現在的想法是，我們有理事會、有技術委員會，他們做技術評審，把關技術孵化，然後資源分配需要通過理事會的決議。首先形成方案，就像立項一樣，這個項目要怎麼投入，方案需要理事會通過，至少這個機制我們是有的。具體到項目上，可能需要有相關項目的leader去負責。所以整體來說這個問題我們還在摸索中，現在有一些初步的項目在跑，但是我們可能還需要等孵化畢業，經過一些驗證。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：開放原子現階段面臨的挑戰主要來自哪些方面？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"挑戰我覺得主要是兩方面，一個是前面提到的，我們在實際的溝通運作中發現，大多數人真的不理解基金會是怎麼運作的。可能大多數人對開源都還不夠理解，理解基金會的就更少，這是我覺得很重要的一個挑戰。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：您指的是外部的人還是內部的人？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"都有。剛纔也提到了，雖然外部有很多人以前參與過其他基金會，但參與基金會並不見得說他能去運作一個基金會。運作一個企業跟運作一個基金會，其實有蠻大的不同。從法律層面上，從實際運營層面上，因爲你服務的對象是不一樣的。你向管理層負責，跟你現在向公衆負責，有非常大的差別。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"第二點，我們畢竟是國內註冊的基金會，不管法律體系也好，文化也好，不可否認我們還是受中國文化影響會很多。我們並不是不做國際化，因爲開源是面向全球的，只是在這種框架下怎麼能有一個適合國內的運作模式，我覺得這是另外一個挑戰。這個挑戰我剛纔也講了，不見得說我們照搬Apache、照搬Linux、照搬OpenStack就一定能work，因爲受制於文化，受制於一些理念，受制於現狀，甚至法律的一些限制。剛纔聊了很多，有些東西沒法照搬。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"最關鍵的是要有一套機制，才能保證它能不斷地運作迭代，如果沒有一個好的機制，是比較難的，你可能就只能靠人，比如這個人能做，換個人就不能做了，就很慘。一個好的機制，可能有幾個人都能把這個事情做起來，甚至慢慢地別的人也能去做，因爲機制在這裏。就像我們說TOC，可能以後這些人都輪換掉了，但是有個好的機制還能繼續運作。我覺得這兩個是比較主要的挑戰。"}]},{"type":"heading","attrs":{"align":null,"level":2},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"“只有不到1%的開源項目能成功商業化，不熱愛就別來”"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：從最初接觸開源到現在，您看到開源社區發生了哪些變化？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"早期開源其實還比較草根，或者很多是個人英雄主義，比如一個大牛寫了一個項目，廣爲流傳，然後大家都膜拜，拿Linux和OpenStack比就非常明顯。一說Linux大家都能想到Linus這個人，但OpenStack你能想到哪個人嗎？OpenStack的成功，我個人認爲其實OpenStack基金會起到了非常大的一個作用，這是跟Linux最大的不同。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"這也是我們看到OpenStack基金會帶來的新變化，你不太能看到一個人了，你看到的是一個團隊，基金會的作用、專業團隊的作用更明顯。像Linus這樣的人我覺得不說千年不遇，反正至少是百年不遇，遇到的機會太少了。包括K8s，大家想到的可能也不是某個人，而是首先會想到CNCF基金會。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"所以我覺得從原來的個人英雄主義到現在的專業團隊，這個是很大的不同，這也跟協作的邊界越來越大有關。以前一個人一臺電腦，不管是操作系統還是數據庫，可能都寫得出來；現在雲計算、人工智能、區塊鏈，一個人做不了，比如要搭建雲的環境，需要交換機、路由器、存儲、設備等等一堆東西，一個人搞不定，就需要大家一起協作去做。需要團隊協作的越來越明顯，所以更需要專業的團隊，這是第一個變化。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"第二個變化跟賺錢或者商業化有關。早期大家看開源，情懷主義或理想主義會多一些，一開始做開源並沒有想到去賺錢。但項目光靠熱情和情懷是不可持續的。所以我們現在提倡可持續的開源，就要考慮跟商業有機結合，才能保證開發人員不會因爲生活所迫，不得不中斷開源項目的維護，或者工作變動影響對原來項目的投入。早期一些大廠的開源項目很多時候就是因爲人員變動，這個項目他沒辦法去投入，因爲可能這些人比如升職了，甚至轉部門了或者跳槽了，這個項目就沒人維護了。爲什麼會這樣？其實還是因爲可持續的開源模式沒有找到，如果這個項目能可持續，我相信他去了別的公司，他也還能繼續參與貢獻這個項目。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"現在我們看到了有越來越多這方面的變化，很多人可能不在原公司了，但是還會在這個項目裏。因爲這個項目火了，或者捐給基金會了，那可能你不在原公司了，但是在別的公司同樣還可以參與貢獻，因爲有一個專業的平臺在支撐項目發展，這種平臺越來越多、越來越成熟。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"商業方面，原來創業很難，但現在通過開源的方式去創業，已經能得到資本的認可了，我覺得這也是這5到10年很大的一個變化。早期開源，資本根本不會看的。10年前，基本上國內沒有幾個VC會去投開源，5年前從OpenStack開始會有一些，但也不多，畢竟好的項目還是少。但這幾年突然冒出來好多，尤其是原創項目，比如TiDB、Kyligence等等，很多開源項目都得到了認可。我覺得是個好事情，但是資本進來不一定能夠保證它一定成功。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"基於OpenStack的很多創業公司其實活到現在的也是少數，容器的可能更少，因爲開源本身是有一定挑戰的。你把開源做好有一定挑戰，同樣你把它做成商業公司、商業項目，挑戰更大。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"第三個變化我覺得是開源從一個小衆的事情，現在已經變得更廣爲人知、更大衆。比如像今年十四五規劃，國家層面上提出要大力倡導開源，這個重視的程度跟5年前甚至10年前是完全不一樣的。這些變化背後我相信會有大量的事情發生，可以預見，中國肯定會有越來越多的開源項目，包括商業化的案例。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：您曾經提過：“"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#4d4d4d","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"確實有很多開源項目最後由於商業原因夭折了，但商業化也未必能夠挽救所有的開源項目，經營一個開源項目和經營一個企業一樣有風險。”您如何理解開源和商業化之"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"strong"}],"text":"間的關係？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"我自己經歷過這個過程，做過開源，做過商業化，親身嘗試過開源和商業化到底怎麼回事。我現在的看法是開源是可以商業化的，從2000年紅帽在納斯達克敲鐘上市，Hadoop、MongoDB、Databricks等等融資或上市的估值都比較高，證明開源是可以商業化的。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"但是另一方面，能夠商業化的開源項目其實很少。GitHub上有多少開源項目，我們能看到的商業化的開源項目，我估計1%都不到，相對來說比例非常小。尤其是開源運動早期的那種極客精神驅動的項目，比如像理查德·馬修·斯托曼（Richard Matthew Stallman, RMS）搞的各種項目，也很偉大，很多現在都還有影響力的開源項目，但是也沒見商業化。所以"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"開源是能夠商業化的，但是能商業化成功的項目非常少。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"另外，商業化成功的開源項目，雖然這些年市值越來越高，但是在整個IT領域裏面其實比例也是非常小的。就拿OpenStack、Docker來說，當時成立了大把的開源創業公司，活到現在的有幾個？包括Sun當時搞Java，也做的很好，最後被Oracle收購，市值只有幾十億美金。你看這麼偉大的公司最後也不見得商業化上有多大的成功。所以開源可以商業化，但是能夠商業化的開源項目還是比較少，然後成功概率也很低，這是我的看法。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"所以我們需要找到可持續的商業模式，我覺得不能排斥商業化，但是要找到合理的模式，然後可持續地做下去，這纔是關鍵。這裏面要做一些取捨，營利跟非營利之間有一種平衡。比如很多不開源的公司，他就是要賺錢，不把代碼開放出去。我們剛纔爲什麼說基金會是社會財產，其實很大程度上是承擔的公共責任、社會責任。現在很多企業講社會責任，社會責任跟盈利之間怎麼做一個平衡，就是個關鍵。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"如果你只想賺錢，不承擔社會責任，那你的利益是最大化的，你要承擔公攤，這一定是佔成本的，但是你怎麼去把這個東西平衡好，因爲你可能能得到更多額外的回報，或者不叫回報，會有額外更多的收穫，我覺得更好。包括商業模式也不是那麼單一的，比如紅帽它定位就是賣訂閱服務，但這種模式未必可以複製。現在有云，雲上有很多SaaS，包括所謂的open core，可能有很多不同的模式。我覺得找到能跟項目相結合的模式可能比較關鍵，這是我對開源商業化的理解。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：OpenStack興起那個時期，國內開源熱度就還挺高的。當下開源在國內更是熱度空前，您如何看待近幾年國內開源的現狀？做得好的地方是什麼？做得不好的又是什麼？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"杜玉傑："},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"首先從大環境上，現在肯定比5年前10年前的環境好很多。一個是開源的企業越來越多，包括崗位招聘需求也越來越多，優秀的開源項目也比以前多了，我覺得這是大的趨勢。可以預見未來在新興的技術領域，選擇開源模式也逐漸會成爲一個主流。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"早期傳統技術領域肯定是閉源項目爲主，開源項目只是小衆；逐漸地開源閉源慢慢形成抗衡，比如安卓跟蘋果就基本上平分市場；到現在我覺得開源慢慢開始引領了，像人工智能、區塊鏈都是開源先爆發，並且至今好像還沒有看到閉源的成功的東西。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"所以我認爲未來這些新興領域有可能都是用開源的方式，這裏面也有一些必然的原因跟條件。比如剛纔提到的，這種分佈式的項目越來越需要協作，不是一個人或者幾個人關起門來就能搞定的，那就要通過開放協作的方式去運作。然後包括像信任的機制，如果不開放，很難得到大家的信任。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"從這些方面來看，我覺得開源肯定會成爲主流，不光是當下，未來也是主流。所以我覺得這幾年現狀也是利好，大的環境是好的，但是不好的地方可能也有一些。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"首先還是人才資源，就是我們開源的人力儲備相對來說還是少一些，當然這個也需要一些積累和傳承。比如說國外像操作系統，可能寫了一個又一個操作系統，而我們可能一個操作系統都還沒有把它做成功，所以人才上還是有一些缺口。其次是市場、客戶這一塊。中國軟件產業可能以前拿來主義多一些，盜版基本上把很多軟件市場廢掉了，但是雲服務也許能是個機會，就是不靠賣軟件產品了，靠賣服務，當下這是大家認爲比較穩妥的一種方向，但這也需要大家共同努力。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"核心還是怎麼去平衡短期利益跟長期利益。我們說衆行遠獨行快，你自己跑肯定跑得快點，但是要跑得更長遠，肯定要跟大家一起，可能這是要取捨的地方。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":"另外還有一點，就是大的開源往往都是講開源生態，開源生態我的理解是，首先要見過，就是看見的見，見過一些好的開源生態，比如我認爲OpenStack還是不錯的，無論從競爭的角度、從它爲推動開源做的貢獻的角度；其次是建設、構建過，能夠見過一些好的開源生態系統，再去構建好的開源生態系統。這兩個的差別我覺得是當前國內需要去解決的，要讓大家能看見好的開源生態，他們才更有信心去參與和投入，然後還得有人去建設。因爲有些人是因爲相信所以看見，有些人只看到自己想看到的東西、只聽自己想聽的東西，我覺得還是有些不一樣的地方。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}},{"type":"strong"}],"text":"InfoQ：您覺得現在是國內做開源最好的時候嗎？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}}],"text":" "}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#494949","name":"user"}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全球基礎軟件創新大會（北京）2021"},{"type":"link","attrs":{"href":"https:\/\/dive.infoq.cn\/2021\/beijing\/track\/1205","title":null,"type":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"“開源佈道與生態建設”專場"}]},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"color","attrs":{"color":"#7b7f83","name":"user"}}],"text":"等你來！"}]}]}]}