有赞沈淦：代码是一种信仰，破圈才能突围 | TGO专访

{"type":"doc","content":[{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"strong"}],"text":"本期专访嘉宾："}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"沈淦（怀民），有赞技术 VP，TGO 鲲鹏会（杭州）负责人；"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"资深互联网技术专家，拥有 20 多年的团队管理经验，曾在蚂蚁金服、泰金所、大搜车等公司任技术总监、CTO，跨越互联网金融、汽车、零售等多个垂直领域。在大搜车任技术 VP 期间，经历了从 120 人技术团队到 1000 人团队快速增长的管理体系升级。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"image","attrs":{"src":"https:\/\/static001.infoq.cn\/resource\/image\/ae\/6a\/ae67c1cf56d398990bfd91137e25936a.png","alt":null,"title":"","style":[{"key":"width","value":"50%"},{"key":"bordertype","value":"none"}],"href":"","fromPaste":false,"pastePass":false}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"有一个故事是这样的："}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"一个人去参加一个技术团队的会议，会上有人滔滔不绝，有人专门提反对意见，还有一个人几乎沉默不语，在本子上写写画画，然后这个人突然说了几个关键的观点。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"问题来了，"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"strong"}],"text":"谁是团队的技术领导核心？"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"所有人都会觉得是最后提出真知灼见的那个人，因为他一直在思考，在给关键意见，而不是人云亦云，也不是只会唱反调。但是反思日常工作中，可能大部分人会觉得滔滔不绝的那个人才是技术管理者。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"这就考验技术管理者的洞察了。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"这个故事来自杰拉尔德·温伯格的《成为技术领导者》的开篇，也是对沈淦思考方式和工作落地影响很大的一本书。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"2019 年，还在大搜车的沈淦在接受 TGO 的采访中分享了 1000 人团队的管理秘籍，概括为以下四点："}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"“1.组织架构先行：先有靠谱的组织架构，才能有靠谱的人；"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"2.培养团队的执行力：包括硬实力、软实力。硬实力主要是技术专业技能；软实力主要包括管理规划、管理团队、管理项目等技术管理能力；"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":" 3.目标导向：在团队之中正确的落地 OKR；"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":" 4.在线：第一，一切不能录入线上系统的行为都无法客观评价；第二，一切无法评价结果的行为都是耍流氓。”"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"两年过去了，沈淦现在在有赞仍然管理着将近千人的团队，对于技术团队管理，他有了更多鞭辟入里的见解。"}]},{"type":"heading","attrs":{"align":null,"level":1},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"01 技术管理者的思维进阶"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"image","attrs":{"src":"https:\/\/static001.geekbang.org\/infoq\/a6\/a682624c3e4ab2f0afdd3f09bd8f4f22.webp","alt":null,"title":"2020 年 10 月，沈淦在 GTLC 全球技术领导力峰会 · 杭州站做分享","style":[{"key":"width","value":"75%"},{"key":"bordertype","value":"none"}],"href":null,"fromPaste":false,"pastePass":false}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":"center","origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"技术好和管理好并不是一回事。技术管理的难度在于技术管理者受到的专业训练是技术而非管理。因此，技术领导者需要花更多功夫去系统性学习，补齐管理的短板。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"如果将团队规模进行分类，大致可以分为早期 30 人，中期 70 人，后期 300、600 到 900 人不等。不同阶段和规模的团队的管理思维有差异，对团队领导者的要求区别也非常大。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"「我遇到过一个研发只有 50 多人的团队，他们和我讨论要不要建中台？我的建议是先别想着建中台，能把业务做好就差不多了。」"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"在沈淦看来，早期小团队的核心目标应该是搞定业务。规模再大一点时候才上升为浅管理，这个层次上的管理核心有三句话："}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"第一句话是"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"strong"}],"text":"从懂做事到懂管理；"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"第二句话是"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"strong"}],"text":"从亲力亲为到树立榜样。"},{"type":"text","text":"亲力亲为是管理者什么都做，自己成为团队里最牛的人，谁不会做就自己上；而树立榜样，管理者要往后撤一撤，让其他成员成为团队中的榜样；"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"第三句话是"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"strong"}],"text":"从追求极致到多元思维。"},{"type":"text","text":"追求极致是管理者按照自己熟悉的方式，将一个东西打磨得越来越好，但这并非是高阶管理者鼓励的方式。假如从 A 到 B 之间有个鸿沟，把坑填了过去还是绕一圈过去？这时就需要多元思维。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"沈淦举了一个例子说明多元思维对高级团队管理的重要性。如「工作中交给一个人一件事，但如果对方觉得难度太大不太情愿干，甚至有点抵触。一般来讲，如果是直线思维，就是让他要么接受，要么不接受，然后跟他反复 PK。但优秀的领导不会这样，他会说，好！那我找个人赛马，把这个活切一切，交给另外一个同事干。那人一看其他人干得这么起劲，他自己也会慌，自然就改变了态度和行为。」"}]},{"type":"heading","attrs":{"align":null,"level":1},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"02 代码是一种信仰破圈才能突围"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"虽然带领着千人技术团队，但沈淦认为自己只是一个实在又标准的“码农”。二十多年来，他依然坚持着写代码的习惯，最近他在给团队做 Demo，用 Error Prone（Google 出品的一个框架工具）来进行深度代码风格检查。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"可能是出于技术人内心的执念和信仰，沈淦相信，"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"strong"}],"text":"技术的完美并不体现在技术框架多华丽上，技术最终产生的价值是代码，"},{"type":"text","text":"而其它东西都是阶段性的。「一个真正技术人，最后还是要依据每一行代码的好坏来评价。」"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"正是秉持着这份对代码的深深的热爱和敬畏，沈淦觉得追求技术的完美应该是无止境的。2019 年 11 月，他在 GTLC 全球技术领导力峰会上提出「技术 leader 没有天花板」的观点。然而，作为一名技术人，沈淦像大多数程序员一样也曾遇到过迷惘期。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"2011 年，沈淦在金仕达（国内金融领域软件供应商）做技术总监，常常与大型银行项目打交道，他感到困惑，虽然专注于技术，自己却不太像社会人，好像在哪都不是那么合群。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"人很多时候的选择是被整个环境裹挟着往前走，自己内心的选择往往容易被忽视。沈淦当时并没想明白一件事，他是打算一辈子搞技术，还是只是把技术当成谋生的手段。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"“我中间也很摇摆，后面觉得自己就是来干技术的，就不用那么纠结，没有必要跟自己过去比，跟周围别人比。”"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"沈淦后来想清楚了，他想做一个纯粹的技术人。“我的人生理想是见证这个神奇的世界，有更多的体验，别人认为我是一个真诚的值得交往的人就可以了。”"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"strong"}],"text":"内心上，更早地看清楚自己最内心的底色是什么，方法上不断地破圈，突破自己的朋友圈，"},{"type":"text","text":"不断接触和自己不同的人群，是沈淦走出瓶颈的方式。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"image","attrs":{"src":"https:\/\/static001.infoq.cn\/resource\/image\/f6\/a2\/f63344d9802f3026da4e736efeae9da2.png","alt":null,"title":"2020 年 5 月，沈淦参加《深度领导力》作者陈玮新书发布会，右一是沈淦。","style":[{"key":"width","value":"75%"},{"key":"bordertype","value":"none"}],"href":"","fromPaste":false,"pastePass":false}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"当被问及人生中最有成就感的事时，沈淦的回答让人出乎意料。他坦言自己很普通，大部分时间并没有觉得做成了什么事情而感到特别自豪。可能是因为习惯于「做事之前对自己并没有什么期待」的性格，沈淦更想用「没有成就感，参与感更强」来总结自己的人生。"}]},{"type":"heading","attrs":{"align":null,"level":1},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"03 坚持长期主义关注下一个增长点私域流量"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"2019 年汽车行业出现断崖式打击，沈淦离开大搜车加入中国最大的云端商业服务商有赞科技。「"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"strong"}],"text":"崇尚长期主义，不在意一朝一夕的眼前得失。"},{"type":"text","text":"」是有赞吸引沈淦的地方。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"在大众眼里，有赞是一个开店工具，沈淦认为有赞远非如此。相对于国内其他工具型 SaaS，有赞的特殊之处在于它一个交易型的电商 SaaS 平台，这种模式不光有产品，还要有服务和运营，要和商家一起陪跑，共同成长。"}]},{"type":"image","attrs":{"src":"https:\/\/static001.infoq.cn\/resource\/image\/55\/9a\/552e17d41f3b81241ce140129d904e9a.jpg","alt":null,"title":"2020 年 7 月，有赞数据团队迈出商业化生态步伐，沈淦在合作发布会上发言。","style":[{"key":"width","value":"75%"},{"key":"bordertype","value":"none"}],"href":"","fromPaste":false,"pastePass":false}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"投身零售行业后，沈淦对营销方式有了更深的理解，他现在比较看好私域经济。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"「虽然目前多数电商收入来源是与投放密切相关的平台流量生意，私域贡献并非最大，但私域会是未来的一个新的增长点。」"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"这样的判断来源于沈凎对流量经济的理解。他发现中国的流量场有两个：一个场是围绕着交易场所进行，如天猫这样的电商品牌；另一个场是连接人和货的各种数字化的触达手段，如小程序、移动 APP。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"在这场数字化竞争上，中国的技术和模式超前，也将消费者“收割”得非常干净，但围绕场的交易已做到极致，发挥空间并不大。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"「现在商家不是铺天盖地给用户广告，而需要精准打击，转变为以人为中心，先理解消费者是什么样的人，诉求是什么，再去给什么。」"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"的确，在各大平台流量越来越贵的背景下，商家得更聪明灵活地运用各个平台的流量，掌握每个流量的特点，"},{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"strong"}],"text":"从场的数字化转变为人的数字化，才能占据流量经济的高点。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"为什么私域变得如此重要？沈凎解释到，用户不是平台的，而是商家的。不管是私域还是全域，最后都要往复购、增购、裂变方向走，考虑到做增量的同时，获客成本、客单价和 ROI 比单纯买流量便宜，这必然导致商家后期重度投入。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"「举例来说，有赞服务的一个百购行业的客户，他们以往的导购方式是导购员留下客户电话或微信，有好东西就给对方推，这种方式对导购的业绩激励并不直观；上了私域后就不同了，不仅导购激励在线化，还增加了吸粉指标，导购可以再拿一份收入，大大增强了导购员发展业绩的动力。」"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","text":"顺着这条逻辑，私域将消费者系统沉淀下来转换成会员，平台再给会员推更多东西，如新活动、新产品和优惠券，在“疫情”期间，很多门店销售很差，有赞通过这种导购、会员复购、增购的方式，帮助商家销售业绩上涨，对冲了原本比较差的门店生意。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null},"content":[{"type":"text","marks":[{"type":"strong"}],"text":"但私域从概念到全场景的落地，实现快速增长还有一段距离。"},{"type":"text","text":"沈淦认为，私域还处于早期，大部分商家更擅长玩了十几年的流量打法，这个行业需要一定时间集体学习运营和私域。虽然很多人知道私域是个好东西，是未来的一个新的增长点，但如何像流量生意那样精细化运营还有待探索。"}]},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}},{"type":"paragraph","attrs":{"indent":0,"number":0,"align":null,"origin":null}}]}